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  This discussion was removed from a "catholic" forum
when the topic turned to Free Will.

What if Mary had said no?
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SC
http://www.Adoramuste.com


Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
replyPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 5:49 pm      Post subject: What if Mary had said no?
Proof we are made in God's image (assuming of course you believe in God in the first place.)

Quote:
God has free will, therefore, we too have free will. For God to presume on your decisions, to co-op them (confine them to a limited area) is a betrayal of your free will. He would not limit Himself so. And He did not limit you this way either. For He gave you His dignity, His image, His likeness.


“Then God said: 'Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.' ” Gen 1:26 (The New American Bible) published by The Catholic Press

“God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created.” Gen 1:27 (The New American Bible) published by The Catholic Press

The conviction that man has been created in the image and likeness of God is one of the pillars of Christian anthropology. This is what is written in the first chapter of Genesis (1:26). Philosophical and theological reflection has identified in man's mental faculties, that is, in his reason and in his will, a privileged sign of this affinity with God. These faculties, in fact, enable man to know the Lord and to establish a relationship of dialogue with him. In discussing this, St. Thomas points out, "Person signifies what is most perfect in all nature, that is, a subsistent individual of a rational nature" (Summa Theologiae I, q. 29, a. 3).

Pope John Paul II 30 November 1996 Health Care Workers

SC
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a.c.bell



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 7
replyPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:11 pm     Post subject:
I don't understand nor follow your reasoning, where in your post besides the Pope saying so does God creating us in His image = us have this "Free Will". Whatever Free will we might of had surely was lost upon adam freely eating of the tree of knowledge.
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SC

http://www.Adoramuste.com

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
replyPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:32 pm    Post subject: What if Mary had said no?
Quote:
Free will we might of had surely was lost upon adam freely eating of the tree of knowledge.


Where is that stated? I quote canonical documents. What are you quoting?

Perhaps you should read the following definition of Free Will.

“That man has free will, i.e., that in many of his choices he is not constrained from within or without, is both a dogma of faith and the teaching of unaided reason. The modern denial of free will, called determinism, maintains that men are not free but that all choices are determined by environmental and hereditary factors provide motives, they do not preclude free choice. Denial of free will is an equivalent denial of all moral responsibility.” The Catholic Dictionary within (The New American Bible) published by The Catholic Press

SC
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a.c.bell



Joined: 28 Mar 2005
Posts: 7
replyPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 6:59 pm     Post subject:
Quote:
That man has free will, i.e., that in many of his choices he is not constrained from within or without, is both a dogma of faith and the teaching of unaided reason.


I would agree to this definition if and only if it was present in adam only. You see as a result of the fall man now has his choices constrained by his own will. Ephesians 2 states we are dead in our trespasses and sins.

I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God; but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto. (Westminister Confession of Faith.
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SC

http://www.Adoramuste.com

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
replyPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 10:03 pm    Post subject: What if Mary had said no?
I’m going to go along with Jesus. He told us to “be made perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48

If you believe that Jesus meant us only good and not harm, then he would not have asked us to do the impossible.


SC
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Brian Bosse



Joined: 11 Apr 2002
Posts: 1089
Location: Tucson, AZ
replyPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:08 am    Post subject:
Gentlemen,

I do not like this thread. It is not in the least bit interesting, and the tie to Christian logic has not been made explict. So, I am going to trash it. If there is anything here you want to keep, then please paste and copy it to your computer.

Sincerely,

Brian
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