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What if Mary had said no?
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SC

http://www.Adoramuste.com

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 1:21 am     Post subject: What if Mary had said no.
If Salvation History would have succeeded whether Mary had said yes or no (because God cannot fail or be defeated), then the dogmatic proclamation Ineffabilis Deus made by the Roman Church in 1854 declaring Mary born (preserved) without sin is heresy. For it denies Mary free will to choose.

Jesus said that the branch cannot sustain itself if severed from the vine and this church has been severed for 150 years and is now almost completely withered.

Therefore, the Church of Rome must “Repent” and return to her former deeds. For “If you do not repent I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.” (i.e. from before God) (Rev 2:5)

But what can we do? First and foremost, pray - with our whole heart, mind, soul and strength and then proclaim the Immaculate Conception as the heresy it is from the rooftops.

But whether you do so or not. God will keep his promise and the “gates of hell” will not prevail against the Universal Church. A Church that must be Universal for all ages and understood the same by all members of the Mystical Body of Christ.

SC
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tom



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 255
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 2:25 pm     Post subject: Re: What if Mary had said no.
SC,

Quote:
If Salvation History would have succeeded whether Mary had said yes or no (because God cannot fail or be defeated), then the dogmatic proclamation Ineffabilis Deus made by the Roman Church in 1854 declaring Mary born (preserved) without sin is heresy. For it denies Mary free will to choose.

Please prove your assumption.

You attack Catholic Church for something it never did (denying free will in Mary) and then build whole theory on this "fact". But you go silent about the reformed church which started out by denying free will not only in Mary but in all men. This is not only illogical but plainly ill-willed.

You seem to be a kind of former Catholic or "old Catholic" or something similar. This would explain your bitterness and knowledge of Catholic terminology and magisterial documents. What is your relation to the Catholic Church besides hating it?

Tom
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SC

http://www.Adoramuste.com

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 4:17 pm    Post subject: What if Mary had said no.
I have no interest in the “reformed church” whatever you mean by that. Heresy is heresy no matter who proclaims it. That “reformed church’s” heritage is dead as are all those who follow it.

But the Church of Rome DOES deny Mary’s free will with the Immaculate Conception.

Quote:
According to the dogmatic proclamation Ineffabilis Deus made by the Roman Church in 1854 Mary was born (preserved) without sin because God "prepared for his only- begotten Son a mother..."


And You are ignoring my first posting which said in part:

Quote:
What if Mary had said no.

Would God then be stuck with this sinless person walking around with nothing to do.

Or perhaps she couldn't say no, therefore, making all of Salvation history the biggest con-job ever committed and making Mary little more than a sacred cow.


Perhaps you agree with G who wrote me that -

Quote:
“By God's omnipotence. He knows from all time what will occur in time and this knowledge takes nothing away from man's free will. Thus He knew that Mary would say "yes" and could not have been "stuck" by any unanticipated reply. Possibly you might see that Mary was strengthened by the freely given grace that God gave her.”



And to whom I replied:

He knows all things like you know 2+2=4, logic. (And math is used to demonstrate the workings of logic.) If He sees you running blindly towards a cliff, He knows you are going to fall off of it.

By your logic, God knew Mary would say yes, so He beat her to the punch if you will and had her born (preserved) without sin. Because He knew she would say yes. By this logic Judas’ damnation was a setup too because God knew there was no “yes” possible from Judas. This is predestination. Predestination does no allow for free will.

This logic of predestination does not explain why Jesus would pray for Peter and all the apostles. “Remember that Satan has asked for you, to sift you all like wheat. But I have prayed for you that your faith may never fail.” (Luke 22: 31-32) Why bother praying for something Jesus knew the outcome of already.

Your predestination makes a lie out of Jesus’ temptation in the desert, turning it into a mere chimera - fantasy. There was no possibility of His saying no to His Father. The outcome was predestined after all. For if there was no problem with a no from Mary, it is silly to think that Jesus could be tempted.


And back to you. If I were bitter I would not be bothering with you. But sitting back, being amused, watching the Church of Rome implode.

SC
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Xman



Joined: 07 Dec 2004
Posts: 36
Location: Dallas, TX
PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2004 11:15 pm    Post subject:
SC,
Let's take it easy! What precisely is your complaint? At first I thought you were arguing that the Catholic Church embraced heresy when it affirmed that Mary was born without sin. But (unless I am mistaken) your complaint seems to be really about the compatibility of divine foreknowledge and human (libertarian?) freedom.
So then,
1. God foreknows that Mary would “say yes.”
2. If God foreknows that Mary would “say yes”, then necessarily, Mary would “say yes.”
3. If (2) then Mary could not have said “no.”
4. Therefore, Mary did not have freedom of choice.
And perhaps this is what you consider the real heresy. Now I may have missed your point here, but this is what I have surmised. Is this your complaint? If so, it seems there might have been a calmer way of putting it.
You said to Tom,
Quote:
And back to you. If I were bitter I would not be bothering with you. But sitting back, being amused, watching the Church of Rome implode.

I’m sorry man, but (ironically) all I see in that statement is bitterness.
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It therefore follows that all the other good things are good through something other than what they themselves are, while this thing alone is good through itself. Anselm, Monologion
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tom



Joined: 08 Sep 2004
Posts: 255
Location: Tallinn, Estonia
PostPosted: Fri Dec 24, 2004 5:25 pm    Post subject:
Xman, thanks for your interjection.

SC,

to support your claim that

Quote:
... the Church of Rome DOES deny Mary’s free will with the Immaculate Conception.

you give quote from your own first post:

Quote:
According to the dogmatic proclamation Ineffabilis Deus made by the Roman Church in 1854 Mary was born (preserved) without sin because God "prepared for his only- begotten Son a mother..."

What support is this? If I say that I confirm that I am right because I say so, is it satisfactory to you? I doubt. Can you please give your argument to support your assertion.

Quote:
And You are ignoring my first posting which said in part:

Quote:
What if Mary had said no.

Would God then be stuck with this sinless person walking around with nothing to do.

Or perhaps she couldn't say no, therefore, making all of Salvation history the biggest con-job ever committed and making Mary little more than a sacred cow.


How so? I did answer to your question with clear No. God can't be stuck. God knew from eternity Mary will not say no to him as well as he knows that you won't believe she was concieved without original sin and that I do believe it. Nevertheless his knowing this from eternity does not rob us from our free will. Nothing can thwart God's plan. And as he prepared for his Son's incarnation nothing could thwart his plan to bring it about in a Virgin; Virgin not just in flesh but Virgin in Spirit also, the one who was never touched by sin. For it was fitting that Jesus, supreme holiness himself, in whom all divinity dwells bodyly, was taking flesh from the one who had no sin, neither actual nor original.

Quote:
Perhaps you agree with G ...

Kind of yes, but not fully. I don't agree with "He knows from all time what will occur in time" in its exact sense. I believe he knows what will occur in time from eternity.

Quote:
And to whom I replied:

He knows all things like you know 2+2=4, logic. (And math is used to demonstrate the workings of logic.) If He sees you running blindly towards a cliff, He knows you are going to fall off of it.

That's not correct presentation of God's knowledge. You represent him as knowing things in time, extrapolating from "present" to "future". God's knowledge does not depend on experience, neither on reasoning. He knows all things by his essence.

Quote:
By your logic, God knew Mary would say yes, so He beat her to the punch if you will and had her born (preserved) without sin. Because He knew she would say yes. By this logic Judas’ damnation was a setup too because God knew there was no “yes” possible from Judas. This is predestination. Predestination does no allow for free will.

Sorry SC, you jump from God's eternal knowledge to predestination. You make the same leap that Calvinists do but your reaction to that premature conclusion is opposite to theirs. God's knowledge that Mary will say "yes" and that Judas will not, does not imply the opposite was not possible, just that God knows all things, even our free choices.

Quote:
This logic of predestination does not explain why Jesus would pray for Peter and all the apostles. “Remember that Satan has asked for you, to sift you all like wheat. But I have prayed for you that your faith may never fail.” (Luke 22: 31-32) Why bother praying for something Jesus knew the outcome of already.

You seem to presume that if Jesus acts someway God doesn't know this from eternity. But he does. He does know apostles faith does not fail because Jesus prayer cannot fail. God knows all our prayers, offerings, our hope, trust on him, our remorse and repentance, our conversion and the lack of this all.

Quote:
Your predestination makes a lie out of Jesus’ temptation in the desert, turning it into a mere chimera - fantasy. There was no possibility of His saying no to His Father. The outcome was predestined after all. For if there was no problem with a no from Mary, it is silly to think that Jesus could be tempted.

For Jesus sinning was impossible indeed. Because he is not human person but divine person, God who assumed human nature. For God to sin would be to deny his own nature. Human nature assumed into divine person of the Son of God was in total conformance to divine nature. Only so was he the perfect image of God so that who sees him sees the Father. The question of Mary's immaculate conception has nothing to do with Jesus temptation. Supreme holiness incarnated in Jesus was fitting to dwell in flesh not touched by any sin whatsoever. As Jesus got his flesh from Mary it was suitable to preseve her from original sin. If it were not Mary it would have been someone other. But as God had known and chosen Mary what have you to say against his choice?

Quote:
And back to you. If I were bitter I would not be bothering with you. But sitting back, being amused, watching the Church of Rome implode.

OK, but what about your relation to Catholic Church? From your post I see you don't consider yourself belonging to some of the "reformed churches".

Tom
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SC

http://www.Adoramuste.com

Joined: 22 Dec 2004
Posts: 10
PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2004 4:47 pm    Post subject: What if Mary had said no.
You are trying to have it both ways so you can remain “faithful” to the heresy of the Immaculate Conception.

God is not a puppeteer. We are made in His image and likeness or Jesus would have been asking the impossible of us by saying, “Be perfect even as my heavenly Father is perfect.”

God has free will, therefore, we too have free will. For God to presume on your decisions, to co-op them (confine them to a limited area) is a betrayal of your free will. He would not limit Himself so. And He did not limit you this way either. For He gave you His dignity, His image, His likeness.

As for what she did being out of the ordinary. Each member of the Mystical Body of Christ is unique but only in the way they say yes to God. The actual process is ordinary indeed. Mary was a mother. Gave birth, like all women do. Raised up a child, like all women do. Suffered when her child suffered, like all women do. No bridges were designed, no books written, no wars won. She did what every woman has done. And in doing so she lived the perfect life, she served others. “He who is greatest among you shall be your servant; whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.” (Matt 23: 27-30)

She bore the Son of God through the Holy Spirit not through her “blessedness.” “For he has looked down upon His servant in her lowliness; all ages to come shall call me blessed. God who is mighty has done great things for me, holy is His name.” (Luke 1: 48-49)

Nor was the virgin birth the only method God considered.

“Again the Lord spoke to Ahaz” Ask for a sign from the Lord, your God; let it be deep as the nether world, or high as the sky! But Ahaz answered, “I will not ask! I will not tempt the Lord!” Then he said: Listen, O house of David! Is it not enough for you to weary men, must you also weary my God? Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall name him Immanuel. He shall be living on curds and honey by the time he learns to reject the bad and choose the good. (Isaiah 7:11-15)

So the question remains to be answered.

Quote:
What if Mary had said no.

Would God then be stuck with this sinless person walking around with nothing to do.

Or perhaps she couldn't say no, therefore, making all of Salvation history the biggest con-job ever committed and making Mary little more than a sacred cow.


Now this day, December 25th, as you celebrate the divine pregnancy, I praise and glorify God for the mercy He has shown to His creation in rescuing us from the first Whore of Babylon, Eve.


SC
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